Did Digg and YouTube just spell the end of Internet Explorer 6?
In the last few days the blogosphere was abuzz and Twiter a-twitter about “Digg pondering dropping support for IE6“:http://blog.digg.com/?p=878 and now “YouTube showing an ‘update your IE as we won’t support you in the future’”:http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/07/14/youtube-will-be-next-to-kiss-ie6-support-goodbye/ message.
While this is great and I am happy about it I really doubt though that this has a massive impact. Sites like YouTube and Digg seeing a negligible number of IE6 users arriving on their site has a reason: companies that lock their people into IE6 are also companies that block social web sites.
For example I cannot send any Flickr, YouTube, Facebook, Vimeo, Myspace or Bebo links to a person I know that works in a large financial corporation. This blog, probably because of its name is also banned, and so is S3 for storage. What happens? People attach 10mb videos to emails which strangely enough don’t get banned as 20mb PPTs are not uncommon in that environment. That this is stupid is not the debate, that it happens is sadly enough a fact. The brave new world of web2.0 awesomeness is far from being the part of IT were most people are and where lots of money is spent.
In the case of YouTube the impact is even less impressive as for years YouTube has rightfully claimed to have 70% of their traffic from embedded media rather than people coming to their site. I upload videos to YouTube but I have given up on comments and tagging on YouTube years ago – the audience is simply not quality but quantity driven. What would be more interesting to see is if the YouTube player could detect a video being embedded in a site that is shown with IE6 and then asking for upgrade.
All this smacks of the well known number that 99% of the web has Flash installed. Well, this number comes from Adobe so yes, when I go to the Adobe site to upgrade my Flash plugin I do have Flash installed the same way that when I go to MSDN or windowsupdate.com I am very likely to have IE and Silverlight. These are self-fulfilling prophecies.
I guess Facebook will be next to say something in the vein of not supporting IE6, which would be as much of a media hoo-hah but actually much more useful if it supported standard development practices or made the site accessible to assistive technology at the same time.
Social web sites not supporting IE6 is a sign, but a sign to an audience that already understands the problem. It is like adding a message for blind users as a JPG without alternative text – nice idea, wrong tool to reach the intended target group.
What would be interesting would be to see just what kind of web sites are banned in the IE6 loving IT environments. That way we could go to clients and say that if thy want to build something in the same vein than they are OK to not give a toss about IE6 as their site will be banned anyway.
So, while I applaud the decision of YouTube and Digg I also see that it is a damn easy one for them to do as there is no danger involved.
Web sites like the BBC, Sky or even more interesting Bloomberg, Financial Times and other resources corporations use and need dropping IE6 support would be a real impact.
The BBC has the problem that they cannot ask people to upgrade anything by law – which is why they had to “build their own JS library to support old browsers”:http://www.bbc.co.uk/glow/docs/articles/what_is_glow.shtml. You can say that was a step to keep old browsers around and stop innovation but in reality it was a legal necessity and there is no way around. Laws and especially publication laws are the enemy of innovation – and boy do we have a task ahead of us if we want to change that.
In the case of financial companies and large software corporations that build systems for other software corporations and supporting IE6 more or less exclusively (try using an Oracle self-service system with Firefox on a Mac, I dare you!) they are blissfully unaware of the issues they cause and who is to blame? Us, the people who want to change the web and live on the bleeding edge of web design and development. Every single time I ask what can be done about corporate environments, terrible education in universities when it comes to web development and shortsighted and very wrong guidelines and standards in government web sites I hear the same thing – “there is no point in wasting energy on this, we’ll never reach them or change that”.
If that is the case then we also have no right to complain about IE6, cause either we change the cause or moan about symptoms. Right now we do neither as we are too busy celebrating minor victories that make us feel as if we changed the world.
The ball is still in the court of Microsoft. They have the channels to reach the people that need to upgrade their browsers – to keep their systems more secure and to allow us to build web solutions that make the day to day life of cubicle dwellers all over the world much easier and prettier. Right now Microsoft is battling itself over an issue that keeps them from innovating. Google OS is an unashamed attack to the old-school office world, and I for one would love to see it succeed as stagnation and maintaining a status quo that makes people hate computers and programs that they need to use to do their job is not what building software for people is about. The money spent on marketing stunts comparing IE8 to other browsers and “women throwing up when not using IE8“:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB9fhjnJcB0 could be spent better in a campaign tailored at corporate IT to join us in a past-Y2K world.
Twitter comments hidden by request.
Tags: browser support, browsers, development, digg, ie6, standards, youtube
July 14th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
Twitter Comment
Thoughts on Digg and YouTube killing IE6. Nice step. Lack of impact – [link to post] (via @codepo8)
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July 14th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Twitter Comment
The illustration alone is worth visiting @codepo8′s post [link to post]
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July 14th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Us. Exactly.
The first smatterings of MSNBC video was windows only. I like to think that the push for flash video by content authors and media competitors is what pulled them from their grip on windows media.
July 14th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Twitter Comment
digg and youtube to block support for IE6. baby steps… but is it enough? [link to post]
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July 14th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Twitter Comment
RT: @codepo8 My thoughts on Digg and YouTube killing IE6 - nice step – lack of impact [link to post]
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July 14th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Twitter Comment
“companies that lock their people into IE6 are also companies that block social web sites.” [link to post] via @snookca
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July 14th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Twitter Comment
Read @codepo8 on Digg & YouTube “killing” IE6: “like adding a message for blind users as a JPG without alternative text.” [link to post]
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July 14th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Twitter Comment
The illustration alone is worth visiting @codepo8′s post [link to post] (via @snookca)
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July 14th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Goodness me this post strikes a chord! I didnt realise there were so many places around with the same philosophy as my own working environment!
and I am the crusader who has been employed to try and effect a paradigm shift in the culture of the organisation!! Good job I like a challenge, isnt it? :-)
July 14th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Twitter Comment
Wait till I come! » Blog Archive » Did Digg and YouTube just spell the end of Internet Explorer 6? [link to post]
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July 14th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Twitter Comment
My thoughts on Digg and YouTube killing IE6 - nice step – lack of impact [link to post]
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July 14th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Twitter Comment
RT @snookca [link to post] — “the end of IE”‘s been promised as long as “the paperless office” and “the cash-free economy,” no? Still…
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July 14th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Twitter Comment
RT @h_fj: [link to post] — “the end of IE”‘s been promised as long as “the paperless office” and “the cash-free economy,” no? Still…
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July 14th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
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via @H_FJ & @snookca “Social sites not supporting IE6 is a sign to an audience that already understands the problem” [link to post]
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July 14th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
Twitter Comment
RT @H_FJ [link to post] – 62% for me. “design, composer, milk, breather,” and “coming out”. “coming out (of the concert)”! context!
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July 14th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
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RT @snookca The illustration alone is worth visiting @codepo8′s post [link to post]
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July 14th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
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@H_FJ ‘the end of IE’ is like ‘the year of the linux desktop’…
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July 14th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
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@codepo8 Yeah. When @GOOGLE stops supporting IE6, THAT’LL mean something. Corporate IT’s response to Youtube’s news? Awesome!
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July 14th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
Twitter Comment
Is this the end of IE6? Please please let it be true [link to post]
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July 14th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Twitter Comment
I read: Did Digg and YouTube just spell the end of Internet Explorer 6? [link to post]
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July 14th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
Twitter Comment
Good summary of the recent IE6 drama by @codepo8 at [link to post] While we might dislike IE6, developers must be able to deal with it
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July 14th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
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Wait till I come! » Blog Archive » Did Digg and YouTube just spell … [link to post]
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July 14th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
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RT @snookca: [link to post] Digg and YouTube drop IE6: A drop in the ocean? #localgovweb
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July 14th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
Twitter Comment
Great post by @codepo8 reg. dropping support for IE6: [link to post] — unfortunately he is right :-(
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July 14th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Twitter Comment
RT @skip694: RT @snookca: [link to post] Digg and YouTube drop IE6: A drop in the ocean? #localgovweb http://twurl.nl/0saach
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July 14th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
Twitter Comment
Pretty much agreeing with @codepo8 on his article about digg and youtube dropping IE6 support (in the future) [link to post]
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July 14th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
Twitter Comment
RT @codepo8: My thoughts on Digg and YouTube killing IE6 - nice step – lack of impact [link to post]
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July 14th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
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RT @nathansmith Thoughts on Digg and YouTube killing IE6. Nice step. Lack of impact – [link to post] (via @codepo8)
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July 15th, 2009 at 12:13 am
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[link to post] My prediction: in 2011 most of these places will either have Win7 pro (with IE6 & 8), or multiple browsers (FF + IE6)
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July 15th, 2009 at 12:40 am
Its a vicious circle. MS supplies the browser their corporate customers need. Corporate IT groups are heavily invested in software that requires IE6 (like the Oracle example). Oracle and the other enterprise software vendors cant de-support IE6 as that would be sales-suicide, and round and round we go.
The pain of developing for IE6 just isnt felt the same when that’s really the only browser you focus on, and likely all that front-end code was done for you anyhow by some forms-based code generator. So the developer-productivity/pricing stick wont work here. The trick must be to leap-frog IE6 in terms of user experience. If – for close to zero effort – end users can get a demonstrably better experience from the web apps they already use, an upgrade initiative might fly. Tabbed browsing alone wont do it. A speed boost, tabbed browsing, better security? Nah, the only thing that will shift this old dog is a killer IT-spyware feature like better monitoring and reporting capabilities for the ever-paranoid IT groups. Only then will you see change.
July 15th, 2009 at 1:27 am
Twitter Comment
Wait till I come! » Blog Archive » Did Digg and YouTube just spell …: In the last few days the blogosphere was.. [link to post]
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July 15th, 2009 at 6:25 am
The ball is no longer in MS’s hands. They already push IE8 as an automatic update for Windows XP users. It’s up to corporate IT departments and individuals now.
Also, digg and youtube stopping IE6 support IS a big deal. It signals to other sites and other developers that it’s ok to let go of IE6 users. The users that are forced into IE6 through their IT departments are also the most likely to be behind restrictive corporate firewalls and network filtering, you have to pretty much write off such users entirely. The users that have a choice to upgrade from IE6 will be given even greater incentive to do so, this is a virtuous cycle that leads to less dev. time being frittered away trying to work around IE6 bugs and more time working on features of legitimate value.
July 15th, 2009 at 8:11 am
@wedge, that is true, but let’s not forget that MS also released “a patch that disables automatic upgrade to ie8″:http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=21687628-5806-4ba6-9e4e-8e224ec6dd8c&displaylang=en for XP admins.
As I said, MS is battling itself over the issue. I am very sure that the number of home users of IE6 is ridiculously low.
July 15th, 2009 at 9:12 am
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@farhanlalji fully agreed on the IE6 thing:[link to post]
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July 15th, 2009 at 9:17 am
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nice post, Christian RT @codepo8: @farhanlalji fully agreed on the IE6 thing:[link to post]
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July 15th, 2009 at 11:03 am
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Wait till I come! » Blog Archive » Did Digg and YouTube just spell the end of Internet Explorer 6? [link to post]
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July 15th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
As someone who works in the IT department at a company who still uses IE6 as the desktop standard, I have some experience of the problem. And yes, it’s mostly about cost and fear, generally at a management level.
Even to start thinking about upgrading the standard browser is going to cost money. Unless you’ve already got excellent auditing, it’s difficult to tell how many people are using browsers internally for what systems.
That is, you might have lots of detailed logging on your YouTube-blocking corporate firewall, but you won’t know which fifteen people in the company are using IE6 to view something in Oracle Discoverer, or who’s using your custom helpdesk system, or whether anyone is still looking at that old web app that Steve knocked up back in VBScript in 2003…
Once you’ve got your list, then you’ll have to test them all, or check with each provider, to see whether they’ll work in IE7 or IE8. Then, for those that don’t, you’ll have to upgrade or fix them. So it costs, sometimes tens, or even hundreds of thousands of pounds — often for some system that’s working perfectly fine with IE6.
And if you don’t get it right, then the day after you roll out IE8 to all your machines, some percentage of your user base won’t be able to do some percentage of their jobs. So there’s fear, too.
Until it costs more to a business not to upgrade, those people who are in charge of spending the money are going to sit on their hands and tell their IT staff to make sure IE6 stays exactly where it is.
And of course, the IT staff won’t be too bothered one way or the other, because they’re all using Firefox anyway, and ignoring the firewall…
July 15th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Thanks so much Matt, we need more insights like that!
July 15th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Twitter Comment
Damn good comment on my IE6 vs YouTube blogpost by someone working in corporate IT: [link to post]
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July 15th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
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IE6 is a pain for sure, but the bashers need to read this intelligent post on why it matters. [link to post]
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July 15th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Twitter Comment
RT @mr_creative: YouTube and Digg setup the end of IE6 @codepo8 [link to post]
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July 15th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
As someone who works in the IT department for a Fortune 200 company that HAS upgraded all of its thousands and thousands of PCs to IE7 even in the face of the minefield that is corporate enterprise software, it is something that is possible.
Even the most basic web statistics log parsers for Apache will give you detailed statistics on who is accessing what, and with what browser.
My opinion is that we need an Appcelerator/Mozilla Prism like application wrapper for IE6, to allow individual web applications to use IE6 standalone on the same computer than an IE7 or IE8 browser is installed by default. The first person to develop that software for these “fearful” IT departments gets a case of beer from me.
July 15th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Im also working for a company that still uses IE6 as corporate browser. Even worse, due to the many security holes in IE6, ActiveX Support is mostly disabled, resulting in virtually no Ajax capabilities (you have to resort to XML data islands to do async calls). This is a serious hindrance for advancing tools inside the company. Matts comment above clearly illustrates the reasons why companies such as he and I are working for should finally start to care about buying software that supports open standards.
July 15th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Twitter Comment
YouTube and Digg setup the end of IE6 @codepo8 [link to post]
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July 15th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
I think Matt Gibson (about a few posts above) said it best:
“Until it costs more to a business not to upgrade, those people who are in charge of spending the money are going to sit on their hands and tell their IT staff to make sure IE6 stays exactly where it is.”
I think sites like Youtube and Digg should continue against IE6 and the rest of the web should follow suit. Only then, through a business potentially losing money by using IE6, will they upgrade. Why? Because there’s then a business reason to do so.
July 15th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Twitter Comment
@CFJamesAllen checkout @codepo8 blog post and point them at it ;) [link to post] if youtube and digg are dropping support ;)
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July 15th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
@Mike M playing devil’s advocate here: can you tell me the business reason for a bank to allow their people to access youtube or digg?
Now if the FT or oracle systems wouldn’t work…
July 15th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
What I find the most amazing about the IE6 conundrum is that it’s a feedback loop. Corporate IT won’t upgrade browsers because so many internal apps are coded to IE6 and would break in IE7+ or God forbid Firefox or Safari.
But, while the default browser is IE6, new development will continue to target it. So, it makes the problem even worse and effectively resets the “timer” for when they’ll actually upgrade.
I don’t know what the solution is, but it’s an interesting phenomenon.
July 15th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Hi Chris,
Just my unsolicted 2 cents (that’s including inflation)…Twitter comments here suck. Scroll scroll scroll, ah a real comment. Scroll scroll scroll, hey, another real comment. Scroll scroll scroll.
I would suggest adding a “Show/Hide Twitter Comments” link before the first link. Target “Twitter Comment” and walk the DOM to hide its container. That way, assholes like me can skip all the bullshit RTs.
As they say, Cheers.
July 15th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
@cancelbubble done.
July 15th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
I’m lovin’ itâ„¢ – more and more IT admins coming out of the woodwork over the IE6/Digg/YouTube post:[link to post]
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July 15th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
@codepo8 your comments are unreadable, thanks to the Chat Catcher bits in between, they are just distracting. Me not likes.
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July 15th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
@bigmadkev Thanks! Will send that over. It is a total nightmare isnt it..
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July 15th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
@CFJamesAllen Took the words right out of my mouth, @bigmadkev did!
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July 15th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
@codepo8 Mach ich. Ganz leise. ;)
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July 16th, 2009 at 1:38 am
“Social web sites not supporting IE6 is a sign, but a sign to an audience that already understands the problem” ([link to post])
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Are Digg and YouTube big enough to bring down IE6? Doubtful: [link to post]
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July 16th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
(Agree with the twitter comments thing – RTs kill the usefulness.)
I reckon that in a couple of years, most of these places will either have a two browser policy, either with:
- Win7 pro, where you can have IE6 in an invisible VM, as well as 8, or
- Multiple browsers (IE6 + Firefox)
It’s going to be the only way to get over the fear of breaking things.
July 17th, 2009 at 7:48 am
Have you told many people that your unsolicted 2 cents that’s including inflation …Twitter comments here suck?
July 17th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
I love the descriptions of certain organisations as it reminds me of a workplace I had to escape! [link to post] Good web points too.
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July 23rd, 2009 at 3:59 pm
@redwall_hp the IE6 issue is about the upgrade making business sense and mostly it doesnt, see comments at end [link to post]
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July 23rd, 2009 at 5:57 pm
@seengee It does make business sense. (Tabbed browsing, anyone? Security?) Businesses just continually fail on business sense.
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July 23rd, 2009 at 6:44 pm
@redwall_hp I totally agree that it does, just not in their interpretation of what “business sense” actually is
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July 23rd, 2009 at 7:47 pm
@seengee The media are a prime example. They cling to a dying business model when they need to do something radically different.
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July 23rd, 2009 at 7:48 pm
@seengee “Business sense” is increasingly “business nonsense.” I have no formal business training, but I can spot a lot of mistakes.
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